Riddle Me This! Can Batman Kick Captain America’s Star-Spangled Ass?
Who’d win in a fight between Superman and Spawn? How the f*ck old is Cable? And what in the holy hell is a Megatron? When the tough questions arise, Panels on Pages will gather the facts, but it’s up to the PoP!ulation to draw its own conclusions. So come on… Riddle Me This.
Frequent visitor Blackhart23 poses this week’s question, and it’s a real head-scratcher. Blackhart does put some stipulations on the fight right up front, though. This is two men, unknown to each other, entering a steel cage match. They are unarmed, they are unprepared. No shied. No belt. No body armor. And NO contingency plan. Does this give Cap the edge? Let’s consider some statistics -
According to Marvel’s site, Steve is 6’2″ 220 lbs. Bruce clocks in at the same height with ten pounds to spare at a svelte 210. Both men are masters of various forms of martial arts, though I’ve got to think Bruce, with his world tour, likely has the more diverse skill set. Steve’s fought in an actual war, but on any given day is likely less active than Bruce, considering the latter patrols on a nightly basis. Then there’s the serum. Batman was born from a double homicide that led him on a quest to become the best that a human could be, while Captain America reached the same outcome thanks to his exposure to the Super Soldier serum. Ultimately, it’s a fairly even match on the physical front.
Taking into account mental acumen, we see a significantly different picture. Cap is a master tactician, sure, but the Bat’s keen powers of observation and penchant for on-the-fly planning and threat assessment seem to give him the drop here. While Steve’s more likely to focus on haymakers and half-Nelsons, Bruce will recognize the slight advantage in size and strength his opponent has, and likely focus on pressure points and other more subversive fighting techniques. The level of analysis from the Distinguished Competition’s corner is simply unparalleled.
But the final point to consider here is how far each combatant is willing to go in this fight. Bruce is going to fight ruthlessly right from the start, giving Steve 95% right away and never letting up, whereas Steve’s MO is to pull his punches a bit more, and let the boyscout shine through. 90% isn’t going to cut it against Batman for long. But that’s just it. As I said before, Steve’s a soldier. He’s been in war. He’s killed when the need arose.
Bruce. Won’t. Kill.
Would Steve in this situation? If he truly thought his life – or the life of a friend, teammate, or innocent civilian – was on the line? If it was the only way out?
But here’s perhaps the best question of all: does it matter who wins? Blackhart simply asks if Batman can kick Cap’s ass. How far you take that is up to you, PoP!ulation. So…
Riddle me this! Can Batman kick Captain America’s star-spangled ass?
Filed Under: Columns • Riddle Me This
Please, leave your responses below – get as in depth with your analysis or as brief with your answer as you want.
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Oh, and… I think it was safe to assume that Blackhart meant Bruce vs. Steve, but feel free to theorize on Dick vs. James as well!
Nonsense. Bruce isn’t as strong. He isn’t as fast. He’s got no belt, no cape, nowhere to duck into. Cap takes this one, but I’ll concede Bruce goes down after a hell of a fight.
Oh, Bucky takes Dick down as well. Unless his bionic arm is out of the equation
And on the Bucky front, considering how integrated his new arm is supposed to be, I believe it is fair game. Nay… I deem it to be so!
^if you’re giving it to Cap just because he’s stronger or faster then need I remind you that Bruce took down 30 man-bat assassins (much stronger and faster than Steve ) at once.
Just saying, I don’t think that’ll cut it
Plus I don’t understand why Steve’s willingness to kill would give him some extra advantage. If the other person is a better fighter then having the ‘want’ to kill isnt going to make a lick of difference from them kicking your ass
My argument with Steve was that if the two are going for submission or knockout, they could be fighting each other forever. If Steve doesn’t hold back and goes in for the kill, that would a be a win that Bruce might not be able to get. It’s the argument between Batman and Superman. Superman pulls his punches, which gives Batman the edge against an opponent who otherwise has him outclassed. If Bruce holds back and Steve doesn’t, then I think it’s obvious how that affects the fight.
Oh, and D3r3k? Bruce wasn’t in a cage fight with those ninja Manbats, and I’m pretty sure he DID have his toys. Maybe I’m remembering that wrong though. Although I do agree, the strength/speed argument doesn’t make this a foregone conclusion. It just makes it interesting.
Bruce did have his toys, and I’m really not sure how strong those Ninja Man-Bats are.
In this scenario, i don’t see how Steve wouldn’t come out on top. Bruce’s one on one fights are a hodge podge of being humbled and beating people not really as skilled as he is. He’s lost to Shiva and Deathstroke. Nobody in the Marvel U. wants to fight Cap one on one. I’m not saying it would be a cake walk, but with Steve’s endurance, and enhanced strength, I don’t see how he can lose. The only problem i can see with Cap in this fight would be motivation. What are the stakes?
If we were talking Ultimate Cap this would be a bloodbath. He’s a lot more cut throat than 616 cap, with the same power set, and this guy took on the Hulk and stood in there for a good while.
Meh, I just don’t think being willing to kill will matter here. Just because Batman won’t kill you doesn’t mean he’s holding back. He’s still going to use every bit of skill and cunning he has, which IMO, is more dangerous than simply being willing to kill.
For my actual opinion here, this could really go either way any given time. All it takes is for one of them having a better day than the other. Personal preference would give it to Batman slightly more because I think he’s the dirtier and better fighter
Totally gotta agree on the Ultimate front. Ultimate Cap would have Batman dead to rights.
And D3r3k, here’s basically what I’m imagining: Batman and Cap are both nearly beaten. They each throw a final blow. One of them is getting up from that blow. Maybe not for awhile, but he’s getting up. I’m not specifically saying I think Cap would win. I’m just saying I think that willingness CAN give him an edge. It gives him options in the fight that Bruce simply wouldn’t have.
Just read the part about considering Bucky vs Dick, and then I think the outcome would be different.
Dick is a fighter, and Bucky is an assassin. Dick is going to have a significant advantage in that he is going to be more agile, he’s trained with a guy with two cybernetic arms, and Bucky is used to killing from a distance. He may be a formidable combabtant, but I don’t think he’s on Dick’s level.
Bruce has been the gold standard for comic combat for so long, but I really think that we need to crown a new king in ultimate Cap.
Nick, losing to Deathstroke isn’t like losing to Aunt May. He’d hand Steve his ass too
Jason, I do see your point, but I don’t think it would play any real deciding factor. Steve could hobble over and break Bruce’s neck, or Bruce could lean over and slam Steve’s head into the ground knocking him out. Either way one would win
I’m not questioning what Bruce CAN do (i.e. – slam Steve’s head into the ground) but rather talking about what he won’t. Bruce gets a chance in the fight to kill Steve, he doesn’t take it, the fight goes on, and maybe it turns around. Steve gets a chance in the fight to kill Bruce, he takes it, and the fight is over.
As was said, it would depend on motivation. It would take a lot for Cap to be willing to kill Bats, and it PROBABLY wouldn’t ever come down to that. But it’s a tool that is in Steve’s arsenal that isn’t in Bruce’s.
I’m not saying stronger and faster on their own make it a foregone conclusion. But when you take two fighters with equal skill, my money is on the one that has the edge in quickness/strength. I didn’t read the man bat battle, but I’m imagining they behave like man bat, and just throw themselves around at stuff.
For the record, are man bats blind? If they’re blind, I’m scoffing at this argument. Jeffro could take down 30 blind man bats.
They have that movie for sale at Adamandeve.com
“This is two men, unknown to each other, entering a steel cage match. They are unarmed, they are unprepared. No shied. No belt. No body armor. And NO contingency plan.”
In that scenario I think it’s very hard to argue against Cap winning. It would be a hell of a fight though.
The fight is going to be a blood bath no matter who wins. Think of it in terms of any motivation you want, one of them has to win. For this RMT I should have clarified that I was referring to Steve Rogers and Bruce Wayne of the two I think that Steve Rogers has the advantage in unarmed, unprepared combat. For Bucky vs Dick my money is Mr. Grayson.
Grayson? Bucky’s not just a distance assassin – he’s gone through the same training (or at least most of the same training) as Cap. Plus Russian training. I’m giving this one to Bucky on the account of a bionic arm haymaker and the willingness to fight dirty.
Bruce & Steve fight like good, sportsmanlike individuals until they’re both exhausted, and have earned one another’s respect. Then Bruce takes Rogers down with a smirk, admitting under his breath that Cap is the better man.
In the next fight, Bucky kills Nightwing with a simple snap of the neck within five minutes. Then Bruce jumps in and, in a rage, kills Bucky after about twenty-thirty minutes of the bad-assiest fight anyone has ever seen. Bruce, immediately realizing that he’s crossed a line that can never be un-crossed, retreats into the darkness. The Batman is now Captain America’s greatest enemy.
Bruce Wayne is fucking crazy.
Wow.
I LOVE this assessment. I don’t know if I agree, but I LOVE it.
It pains me to say this but given the conditions Steve wins hands down. Bruce is someone who uses his intelligence as much as anything else but that will only serve to make this an interesting fight for a short time. Bruce is a dirty fighter and will use whatever is at his disposal to take down an opponent. With that taken away from him he’s left at a huge disadvantage.
Slow clap, Elmo. Slow clap.
I think it’s ridiculous to say that without his belt Bruce is useless in a fight. (Or at least that’s how you guys make it sound). It’s not as if the belt disappears so do all the 127 forms of combat he’s mastered go as well. It’s like saying Steve is useless without his shield because he relies on it so much. Both crap.
This whole arguement is like people saying this boxer could cream that boxer or Jet Li could beat Bruce Lee. The main point is YES it could happen because everyone has an off day and so it could ALWAYS happen. How likely it would happen on any given day would be the real factor.
Steve Rogers enhanced abilities aside if we look at this from a logical perspective then Bruce should win (at least on paper) more often than not (in costume or not) due to his supposedly being one of the best fighters on the planet. If we look at this from an emotional perspective however then for my money Cap would win most often. And why? Because he’s Captain frickin’ America baby that’s why!!!!!!!!
Oh and by the way lordd3r3k, Deathstroke might be able to beat Cap but handing him his ass would be a long shot from where I’m sitting.
Like all comic book match-ups, either one of them has the potential to win, it’s all about how it’s written.
^True dat Joshua. This reminds me of the glory days of the Vs. section on the Marvel.com message boards. Derek and Wade will tell you.
My points:
1. Steve killed in the past as a soldier, sure, but in last couple of years he’s been more of a “Killing as the very last act” kind of guy. Prior to Brubaker writing his solo book, didn’t he have some sorts of breakdown due to accidentally killing a terrorist and as a result officially revealed his true identity to the public?
Anyway, I don’t see this factoring into the fight. It’s like saying Bruce will never pick up a gun or a revolver during the fight and Steve will because of his military past. As a honored fighter, I doubt Steve will do that, also knowing it might kill his opponent (with Barman it’ll be quite hard to kill, but Steve won’t know that).
2. I hate it that over the years it has become consensus that Batman is impossible to defeat and will win any fight. Bullcrap. Under all his gadgets, craftiness, fighting experience and heightened abilities — he’s still only human. So is Steve (and hey, a bullet eventually reached him) but he’s not as overrated as Bruce.
3. With Dick and Bucky the fight might be much different. I can’t tell who’ll win, but James won’t hesitate shooting, nor even killing his opponent. Face any of the proteges against the master (James vs. Bruce, etc.) and the outcome will be different. I don’t necessarily think the older ones will have a sure win, but their chances will be much higher.
As much as I like Bruce I think Steve would take this. He simply has the endurance to be the last guy standing after a drawn out one on one combat. I think Bruce is likely the better fighter, but the serum puts Steve on top.
I’m gonna say Batman (Bruce) would win against Cap (Steve) because he seems he would out think and out fight Steve and I don’t think Steve would be willing to kill him. If it was Dick and Bucky, I’d say that would be really close and probobly Bucky Cap would win.
Bigty, those marvel.com discussions were legendary!
I don’t get the ‘out think’ point of view. They’re locked in a cage. There’s nowhere to go. There’s nothing to deduce, or solve, or use to your advantage. It’s just Cap & Bruce.
^ just because it’s a cage doesn’t mean the surroundings can’t be used to his advantage. Things like maneuverability, rebounding, and fighting tactics in enclosed spaces are points Bruce may be better suited for
Those things that Bruce would be using to his advantage – maneuverability, rebounding, and fighting tactics? Those are the places where Cap and Bruce are equally matched.
Put both rats in a maze? Bruce wins.
Put both rats in a maze and tell them to fight each other? Bruce wins.
Put both rats in a box? I’m not so sure Bruce wins.
That is exactly what I was going for in the setup, take away every external factor until it’s just the two of them, fighting at there peak unaided by anything.
Well said KWhack
Just wanted to give a big thanks to POP! for responding to my question, and to all that have answered, now I am not so sure of the outcome myself. And Elmo, I absolutely love your version.
Happy to do it Blackhart! “Who would win” scenarios are ALWAYS fun. I tried to get some HeroClix stats to help compare the two characters, but it seems impossible to get any sort of clear cut match up out of that.
Everyone else, PLEASE feel free to jump in with your own insane questions.
As for this one, I honestly don’t know who I think would win, but I’ll agree that either COULD all depending on the writing. I mean, hell, if a writer REALLY wants him to, Batman could beat Galactus. Point being, this one’s ridiculously close.
One last consideration… Christian Bale vs. Chris Evans.
Bale. He’s f#$%ing crazy.
^ exactly
Chris Evans has got the unfair advantage, because he’s got Human Torch powers too. If he could breathe underwater, he could play all three Invaders!
I made that joke the day he was cast. I was talking to Lee, and I’m like… Chris Evans is well on his way to Invaders, a one-man show.
Bale, however, is very much a method actor. Look at how he transforms his body for each role.
“Chris Evans is well on his way to Invaders, a one-man show.”
I’d sooner watch that than an Eddie Murphy movie.
This seems like the most hotly contested matchup in comics. Like I’ve said many times I cannot remember too many people cleanly beating Cap in a fight but I recall Bruce losing to guys much less skilled than Captain America. If both of these guys are in the upper echelon of fighters in their respective universes then the edge goes to Cap because of his enhanced endurance, strength and speed. This is in no way a fair fight because Bruce is only human and it doesn’t matter how smart he is, fighting someone like Captain America would be a daunting task and fatigue and punishment would eventually prove the end for Batman.
Also, why is it that Batman is the so-called top fighter? Doesn’t that honor belong to either Bronze Tiger, Lady Shiva or even Black Canary.
For all the talk that Batman is overrated, I’ve never seen someone more put on a pedestal than Steve Rogers. He’s on glorified steroids, not invincible. All this talk that “it’s not a fair fight unarmed” is damn near ridiculous.
But we’re all entitled to our opinions
^Glorified steroids? Well I’ve never. At least he’s not a filthy rich kid with all those fancy schmancy gadgets doing all the work.
Just saying, for all the grumbling people do about how Batman can’t be beat, the same can be said for Steve. I’ve never seen someone say, “Oh yeah, __________ can kick Steve’s ass”. It’d be interesting to hear from Cap fans who they DO think can beat Steve
Shang Chi, probably. Maybe Iron Fist, but that’d be close.
Iron Fist? That’s a new one. Does he specialize in one type of martial arts, or does he have a range?
I figure Wolverine would be on the list, since he already has bested Cap at least once (fighting dirty no less, which is another reason I lean towards Bats).. and then logically if Wolvie could win, I would assume Sabretooth as well, since he hands Wolvie his ass on a regular basis.
Any others?
Yeah Iron Fist is a beast. He’s K’un-Lun’s greatest champion, they have a sort of mystical super kung fu thing going. He’s also recently mastered the use of his “Chi” so he can basically punch and kick at superhuman levels now. He probably shouldn’t be beat by anyone under a pretty powerful meta at this point.
But like with all these characters everything depends on the situation and if they’re written to used their full abilities or not.
Juggernaut, Wolverine, Sabertooth, Iron Fist, Bucky (only because I think he’d catch Steve off guard by doing something Steve would NEVER expect from James), Daredevil, Mr. X… and maybe Quicksilver or Nightcrawler.
Bearing in mind all of these characters, save Bucky, are powered. And again, I only think Bucky would get the nod because Steve MIGHT let his guard down for that one.
If all powers and abilities were stripped away, Danny might still be able to take him. Maybe. But I think he’s the only one.
I’d like to see the Cap/Daredevil fight.
Stripped of powers, of course.
You guys don’t think Wolverine would be able to beat Cap without his healing factor? Even with all the experience he has? I think he still could because in the reference I cited above, Wolvie let Cap beat on him luring him into a false sense of security. Then when Cap stopped punching, he realized he was bleeding out from an artery in this leg that Wolvie cut while Cap was distracted.
Now sure, one can argue that the healing factor helped him do that, but I still think it’s plausible without it.
Logan, written up to his potential, should probably beat Cap even without his healing factor. He’s still easily one of the best fighters around and has a ton of experience. Not to mention he’s got a certain degree of superhuman strength. Ultimately, writers tend to downplay his abilities because they know he can heal from whatever they throw at him. That’s not the case with other great fighters in comics.
We saw the Daredevil/Cap matchup in the Street of Poison storyline in Cap’s original series and it didn’t end too good for ol hornhead.
^ That’s a great storyline, with all the fight pairings. Cap/DD, Cap/Bullseye, Bullseye/Crossbones, Kingpin/Red Skull … this was one of my favorite trades growing up.
Here’s the “real”- Bruce, sans his “batgear”( people forget that his costume is ARMORED-kevlar, lightweight metal alloys,modular exo skeleton) is NOT a match in pure muscle to muscle slug fest against Steve Rogers( Capt America)- reason? Super soldier serum. People are too dismissive of the serum, and liken it to steriods( a common derisive tone from the DC universe fanboys) but the serum has literally rewrote Steves genetics. Batman/ Bruce has trained to “PEAK” human- max bench press of 1,000 lbs, master of many MA stykes, high skilled acrobat,etc, BUT Steve( Cap) is PEAK human- Steven can run at 50 mph for a mile( Bruce is only equal to the best olympic runner at 23 mph for a short distance) Steve , like Bruce in the DC universe, is the top notch Fighter in terms of skill in the Marvel universe! Steve can easily lift 1,200 lbs repeatedly and has shown the ability to lift up to 3,000 lbs during stressful, adrenalin fueled fights. Steve can jump 120 ft horizontally, and up to 25 ft vertically( Bruce has NEVER done this without his gear), Bruce is one of the fastest and stealthiest fighters in DC, but Steve is still faster. And while there skills are similar, with Bruce having a few more MA techniques then Steve, Steve has mastered enough MA styles to counter and match Bruce to a stalemate- and this is what beats Bruce, the Super Soldier serum. Unlike Bruce, Steve’s body doesn’t build up fatigue producing toxins that would eventually overcome Bruce in a physical bout.
People forget that Batman doesn’t simply go “hands on”- he uses force with deception and his bat “tools” to take down his enemies. Prior to the Frank Miller reboot, the batman was frequently shot, stabbed and beaten by “non powered” bad guys and came back to the batcave bloody and wounded frequently- less so Capt. America, who’s body heals faster due to the serum. Capt( Steve) is a tad bit stronger and faster than Bats( Bruce)-enough that Bruce will notice and think up counter moves, which the faster Steve will also adjust to. Batmans legendary kick knock out tactics WON’T work on a faster , harder hitting Steve, Bruce has to go for the “kill” FAST- brutal, crippling moves( with a 5.5/10 advantage if he does over Steve) if this drags out longer than 30 mins? Steve drops Bruce ugly 6/10 times……